Description
CIPE’s Asia Director speaks with two young professionals in Bangladesh to learn their perspectives and first-hand accounts of the political crisis currently unfolding in the country. Civic unrest sparked by university student protests in June led to the fall of a government barely a month later, and the man who is perhaps Bangladesh’s most famous citizen is now the head of an interim government. What is life like in Bangladesh today? How are people running their businesses? Is there reason for optimism? This episode of Democracy that Delivers discusses these questions and more.
Shurat Rana Rushmi is currently working as a Research Associate at the Center of Governance Studies (CGS). She completed her BSS in Economics from Bangladesh University of Professionals and her master’s degree in the same field. She loves to take on challenges and find ways to run things efficiently. She has multiple years of experience working as a program coordinator for CGS in numerous regions of Bangladesh.
Apon Zahir is a Senior Research Associate at the C Center of Governance Studies (CGS). He has multiple years of experience in journalism in Bangladesh, having contributed to several English daily newspapers and having in-depth knowledge of the print and media industry. His research interests include politics, media, human rights, and the effects of corruption in Bangladesh.
John Morrell is the Regional Director for Asia and the Pacific at the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE). In this role, he leads a worldwide team of accomplished professionals and is responsible for a regional portfolio of dozens of programs on anti-corruption, democratizing opportunity, public and private sector governance reform, and creating political space in closed countries. John is a noted and widely published expert on issues related to corruption and governance. In countries across Asia-Pacific, John has personally designed numerous initiatives that build the political, civic and market institutions necessary for governance that is both participatory and accountable, and for economic development that is both inclusive and sustainable
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Transcript
Announcer (00:00):
Democracy That Delivers is brought to you by the Center for International Private Enterprise. Now to your host.
John Morrell (00:08):
Welcome to another episode of the Democracy That Delivers podcast. This special podcast series is brought to you by the Center for International Private Enterprise, or CIPE. Today’s session is about a somber topic, it’s exciting, somber, serious, cause for optimism, cause for pessimism, kind of depends on how you view it. We’re talking about Bangladesh today. Bangladesh, this is coming to you in September 2024. Bangladesh is in the midst of a political crisis, and it’s a political crisis that’s becoming an economic crisis, a sociopolitical crisis. We’re joined today by two very good friends of CIPE, both are with the Centre for Governance Studies, or CGS, one of the most prominent think tanks and genuinely nonpartisan think tanks.
(01:04):
CGS has an ideology, but they’re not partisan, they’re not part of one side or the other. They’re viewed as a very credible technocratic voice. Our two friends are Shurat Rana Rushmi and Apon Zahir. I’m not going to read their biographies, because that takes a little bit too much time, but their biographies are available in the link. And we only have about 30 minutes for this conversation, and so we’re going to jump right in. For a very quick background, 10-second background, the genesis of the crisis in Bangladesh, in June of this year the government enacted a controversial policy basically setting aside a certain percentage of government jobs for descendants of the country’s Independence War.
(01:55):
The Independence War in 1971, the children and grandchildren of the people who fought in that war have an inside track to get government jobs. A bit of a ham-handed policy, obvious political implications behind it, and students, university students initially, but it quickly spread, students erupted in anger. These are the sort of jobs that we’re going to college to be able to obtain, and now you’re saying that we’re only able to even compete for half the jobs, the other half were set aside for people with political connections.
(02:35):
The crisis grew, the protests grew, the government’s response became increasingly heavy-handed, which only added fuel to the fire. Over 300 people have been killed, many of whom students, the Dhaka Police simply opens fire on crowds of protesters. On August 5th, I believe, it was the first week of August, the longtime Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina resigned and had to flee the country. She’s now in exile in India, and the Nobel Peace Prize Winning Muhammad Yunus, founder of the Grameen Bank, basically the inventor of microfinance, he has been made interim prime minister and has formed an interim government. That is the very, very, very quick background. This is all available on CNN and many other platforms.
(03:34):
What we’re going to talk about is what is life and business like in Bangladesh today. So to dive right in, an open question to both of our guests, what is life like in Bangladesh right now? Is it different from Dhaka to the other cities? Or have things calmed down? What is daily life like for regular people in Bangladesh today? So either one of our guests. Start with Shurat.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (04:09):
Hello, John. Thank you for having me. So the life lately right now is very unpredictable. First say the traffic control, there is no traffic police. They have been appointed, but there has been very regulating there. And then-
John Morrell (04:31):
To the police, you’re saying that the police have basically stopped showing up for work?
Shurat Rana Rushmi (04:37):
Yeah.
John Morrell (04:37):
There’s no police.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (04:38):
They were, but recently after Dr. Muhammad Yunus was here, appointment, and then they came to the streets, but they have been very irregular in their actions. In some places we can see them, and in many places we can not. And that’s why the streets, they are not systematically maintained, lots of accidents are going on, and if we talk about the schools, the schools are reopened, but not entirely.
John Morrell (05:18):
You said reopened, so the schools were closed for-
Shurat Rana Rushmi (05:19):
Yeah, yeah. They were closed, all the primary school, high school, universities, every single thing they were closed, shut down for a very long period. So recently slowly the educational system institutions, all of them have been reopened. Students have been showing up, but some of the universities especially, the classes are still going online because the parents are not feeling safe enough to send their children back to the schools. And for the regular people, I’ll say we are just leaving. We don’t know what will happen. In the meantime there were a lot of robberies even in the middle of the night.
(06:13):
This happened for more than a week, right? This happened for more than a week. So anything any time can happen, then this happened when there is no government. So people do demand a government as soon as possible, because that’s how you can maintain a proper, a country can be maintained or a country can be brought in a sustaining way.
John Morrell (06:46):
Sure. It’s incredible, especially for people who live in communities where a lack of police is almost hard to fathom. It’s a basic element of society that there has to be law and order. And when the police just stop showing up for work, there’s no traffic. As much as people might complain about getting tickets when they run a traffic light, you need to have the people writing tickets when people run traffic lights. If there’s no police, things don’t work quite so well. What about the daily life of businesses? If schools are closed, the police aren’t in place, I imagine people are boarding up their shops and things like that. Apon, what has the business impact been like? Not necessarily the macro level, the big manufacturers, they have security and fences and stuff like that, but people who have shops, sidewalk level shops, what is business like for them?
Apon Zahir (07:54):
Thanks again for having us, John. From what we can see initially when there was a period where there was no government at all, so it took a few days for Dr. Muhammad Yunus to fly into Bangladesh from Paris, he was in Paris for the Olympics, so in those days there was complete anarchy in Bangladesh. There was no law, there was no police, and at that time everything was shut down. All the shops were boarded up, there was wide-scale vandalism and robbery everywhere, because there was no accountability and no security.
(08:40):
And for a while all businesses were boarded up, everything was shut down, but now things are slowly opening up. Essential services are more or less all back, and small businesses are also opening up. And the city businesses that you see, which rely a lot on let’s say [inaudible 00:09:04] and delivery, takeaway services and all that, those things are all functioning as far as we can tell. So in that way daily life has resumed, the only problem, as Shurat has stated, is the irregular presence of law enforcement, and as a result there’s still a lot of minor crimes, misdemeanors, vandalism and other activities going on. And also a fair amount of very unchecked corruption, let’s say of bribery and all that, that’s also going on as well.
John Morrell (09:42):
Yeah. And that’s an interesting segue, Apon, because I was going to ask, and for those listening this is an audio only podcast, but my two friends with me are I guess about half my age, so our two guests are both young people, young professionals, young recent university grads from Bangladesh, so they clearly have their finger on the pulse of the mood within that community. Like I said, the protests erupted, the spark that lit the flame was this law, this ham-handed law setting aside 50% of government jobs for those with political connections, people involved with the leadership of the Independence War.
(10:38):
But those protests seemed to evolve, and they evolved quickly into, as you just mentioned, Apon, it’s not just the police aren’t showing up, it’s also the corruption, and just the naked corruption. Bangladesh, by most rankings, international rankings, is regarded as one of the most corrupt countries on earth in terms of the prevalence of it, how often people feel it. So my question to, and I’ll go to you, Shurat, is about that. The mentality within the protests, they were sparked by this law, but they very quickly seemed to evolve into corruption grievances and grievances against the rule of Sheikh Hasina. I don’t want to be overly political, but the protests went from being about one law to unleashing much broader grievances. Am I correct in that, Shurat?
Shurat Rana Rushmi (11:47):
Yes, you are correct. So it evolved very quickly because the spark of this protest is, as you say, the Bangladesh quota system. So these went back to, it started when Bangladesh achieved its independence in 1971. So after that 56% were mandated to the government jobs, who were the Liberation War fighters. So for the decades this was benefited to the descendants, the children, grandchildren of the freedom fighters, then minorities, disabilities, all included. And then there was a similar student movement back in 2018, I think you don’t know, so this came back from there from 2018.
(12:38):
So at that time the issue was mostly settled until this June 2024. So in this what happened is that Bangladesh High Court ruled that ending the quota system was unconstitutional, effectively reinstating. So after that-
John Morrell (13:01):
Is the Supreme Court in Bangladesh well regarded? Or is it regarded as being political?
Shurat Rana Rushmi (13:10):
It’s political.
John Morrell (13:12):
It’s political.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (13:14):
Yeah. So after that the government appealed the High Court decision, that is when the … This is what drove the students back to the street. And then in July around 14, Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina, in a press conference, she actually … In a press conference said she equated the protesters as Razakar, which refers to those who collaborated with the Pakistani forces to fight against the Bangladesh independence in 1971. So in response the protesters adopted the term, they made a slogan, “Who am I? Who are you? Razakar, Razakar. Who said that? Who said that? Autocrat, autocrat.” So autocrat they basically called the prime minister, and that’s how it evolved in this way, precisely after that.
John Morrell (14:22):
… used a Bangladeshi idiom, [inaudible 00:14:26] idiom of using it-
Shurat Rana Rushmi (14:28):
Razakar, yes.
John Morrell (14:31):
Razakar, you’re a collaborator with the old Pakistan government, you’re a collaborator, you’re a traitor. But the protesters, so Sheikh Hasina used that against the protesters, who obviously have nothing to do with-
Shurat Rana Rushmi (14:42):
Yes. And the protest-
John Morrell (14:47):
It’s an insult. It’s an insult, but the students have taken that, “Okay, you want to use that as an insult, we’ll use it as a badge.”
Shurat Rana Rushmi (14:54):
Exactly, exactly. And the protesters are the students, it’s not … It’s the students, why would you do that?
John Morrell (14:59):
Of course. Apon, what are your thoughts on that?
Apon Zahir (15:03):
The method that the previous government used to set a narrative for their mandate to rule essentially comes from the Independence War. As we all know that previous Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina is the daughter of Sheikh Mujibur, who is the founder of the mission. He is the one who declared the initial call for independence, and I think everyone will agree that he is identified as the father of the nation.
John Morrell (15:37):
Yeah, one of the founders of the country. Yeah.
Apon Zahir (15:39):
Yeah, absolutely. So using that ideology, this was a very common tactic of the previous government, label all dissenting voices as against the spirit of the Liberation War. There are laws, such as the Digital Security Act, and also parts of the constitution which makes any kind of dissent against this “spirit of the Liberation War” as an act of betrayal. Or if anyone-
John Morrell (16:11):
Traitors, they’re traitors.
Apon Zahir (16:16):
Exactly. So they used that tactic again, but this time it backfired really bad. It just set a simmering flame into a complete forest fire, and everyone just, they could not handle that situation anymore when everyone came out on the streets, and as a result we see so many deaths, so much violence. Bangladesh was essentially a war zone for two or three weeks. There were tanks rolling on the streets, there were helicopters were shooting down people. It was a very traumatic time for the whole nation.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (17:00):
Yeah. So if I may, so by this time this was no longer a protest among the students only.
John Morrell (17:08):
Yeah, it grew.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (17:10):
Yeah. People from all, the mass people joined it. It’s not longer students, only university students protest. Students from high school, primary school, everyone joined, the mass people joined, everyone joined. Because the students were killed. Especially the first six people who died and the Abu Sayeed from Rampur, he was a student from the Rampur University. He was unarmed and his arms were outreached in front of the police, and he was shot right there. So that’s how it more escalated.
John Morrell (17:54):
And how it went from, you said it was a spark that turned into a forest fire, Apon, as you said, that it was people took this, initially protested over this law, but deep seeded grievances quickly, quickly came to the forefront. And when the police started shooting, it became a forest fire, it became a war zone. A question about Dr. Yunus, Professor Yunus, he’s very well regarded in Western media. I only know of him what I’ve read about him, and the coverage of him is basically universally positive. What is the mood like that he’s back? Because he’s been politically active before, but he’s never held office to my knowledge. So is there a sense of optimism? Or is it a sense of calm? Are things starting to get better? On daily life, on the street.
Apon Zahir (19:03):
So as we are a think tank, we do track the sentiment.
John Morrell (19:10):
Centre for Governance.
Apon Zahir (19:10):
Yes, at CGS. So part of our function is to track the sentiment of the people. From all our data we can tell that people are very positive, and in fact people want this interim government of significant nature to the people [inaudible 00:19:35] Yunus to stay in power for at least five years. Which is to set some background, there is actually no … There’s very weak constitutional backing for this government, because the previous government in an amendment, the previous government had majority in the parliament. In an amendment it made it illegal for any government in interim to come to power.
(20:04):
As a result, this government actually has a very weak legal backing, however there is wide, there is popular mandate for this government, and because it is Professor Muhammad Yunus people are willing to support him, because people see him as nonpartisan, people see him as an antidote to the kind of corruption, and also the kind of politics that has led Bangladesh for so long. For 50 years Bangladesh has been dominated by essentially two families in politics, so Dr. Muhammad Yunus presents an antidote to that, and I think mostly for who want reform in Bangladesh, general reform, feels like that reform can not come from these two families, it has to [inaudible 00:21:10].
John Morrell (21:12):
Shurat, you’re like me, an accountant. You’ve gotten your bachelor’s in science in economics from Bangladesh University, you’re in the process of pursuing a master’s degree. What exactly, just from a purely economic point of view, the Bangladesh economy has been booming, it’s one of the fastest growing economies in the world over the last decade-plus. A lot of people don’t realize this, Bangladesh now has the highest per capita GDP in all of South Asia. Bangladesh has a higher GDP per capita than India. Now, the Gini coefficient in Bangladesh is higher, Bangladesh’s income is increasingly concentrated, but still the economic achievements of the country are nothing to sneeze at, to put it mildly.
(22:03):
What are the economic positions of Muhammad Yunus? Because he’s known as the Nobel Peace Prize Winner, the humanitarian, the Grameen Bank, that’s what he’s known for. But what are his ties with the business community? What are his views on the economy? And what do you think he’ll be able to get done, Shurat?
Shurat Rana Rushmi (22:28):
I think right now, due to the change of the government, and right now actually there is this interim government, I think under his guidance the economy will bloom more. And I think … I’m sorry for the noise, there is construction outside.
John Morrell (22:47):
That’s okay. That’s okay. Dhaka is a crowded place, a lot of background noise.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (22:52):
There’s construction noises every day. So I think under his guidance the businesses will bloom rapidly, in a significant … I mean gradually, but in a long-lasting way. Starting with the grassroots level, at the moment the price of the daily necessities are quite high, so I think this will start from there. Like the general people they can buy the basic necessities at least, because in the last government’s regime the price of the daily necessities, they were the inflation. So I think under, what I expect that under his guidance, under his rule, this inflation will come down and people, the general people will actually be able to buy the daily necessities in a very reasonable price. At the actual prices they can buy.
(24:06):
If I say an example like the very general people they mostly say that they can not buy our national fish, because it’s very high-priced. It’s been a long time that they have not been able to buy and eat it, so it’s just an example. So I think that the daily, the price of the daily necessities will come down when … That’s how I think the economy can bloom rapidly.
John Morrell (24:39):
Yes, that makes sense. And I misspoke earlier, I apologize, Shurat, you are not pursuing a master’s degree in economics, you have a master’s degree of economics. But I misspoke, I apologize.
Shurat Rana Rushmi (24:51):
That’s okay.
John Morrell (24:52):
We’re coming up on the end of the conversation, so my last questions going to be to Apon. Shurat is an economist, you, by background are a journalist. And so as a journalist, what is … If you had a crystal ball and you could see into the future, what’s going to come next in Bangladesh in terms of Bangladesh politics? As Shurat said, Bangladeshi politics have been dominated by two families, by two specific women for the last quarter-century or so. So if you had a crystal ball, Apon, what would it be telling you?
Apon Zahir (25:32):
Well, the political scenario in Bangladesh is very unstable at the moment. One party, the Awami League, who was essentially the most powerful political party or political entity in Bangladesh, has essentially collapsed. Their party infrastructure has collapsed. I don’t think they even have an office anymore, all of them were burned down by angry mobs.
John Morrell (26:01):
Literally, you mean they were … All the Awami League offices were literally burned to the ground-
Apon Zahir (26:07):
Literally burned to the ground by angry mobs. So this is a unique situation in Bangladesh where the most prominent and powerful party entity just disappeared overnight leaving a huge power vacuum in the Bangladesh sociopolitical landscape. We can try to analyze the scenario as a left versus right kind of perspective, even though that may not apply directly in the context of Bangladesh, but Awami League did represent the center left of Bangladesh. They were the party of progressives, of secularism and all that.
(26:49):
So there’s now an international fear that the absence of this center left party, who were prominent for keeping the extreme right in check in Bangladesh, there is now the fear that the extreme right voices will now have more political power and more vocal presence in the politics of Bangladesh, and as a result Bangladesh might turn more towards right position, a religious fundamentalist position perhaps.
John Morrell (27:24):
I was going to ask you, and by right in Bangladesh in politics that refers to religiously conservative, more Islamist parties.
Apon Zahir (27:37):
Yes, Islamist parties. And we can see that currently the Islamist parties are rallying, they have so much, because of the newfound freedom of speech, because they’re no longer disappeared for talking against the government, they are now rallying and they have the support base that have been suppressed for so long, they are now coming out, they’re speaking, they’re holding rallies, and they are playing some key roles in trying to keep Bangladesh stable as well. As a result, their popularity is increasing over time.
(28:16):
So from my understanding and from my opinion I guess, we will see a more prominent right, Islamic right voice in the politics of Bangladesh going forward. But however, over time perhaps a new party may try to replace Awami League, or maybe Awami League will come back after some rehabilitation has taken place, after the proper justice has been met. Lots of cases are being filed, and essentially all prominent figureheads of Awami League have either left the country or are in prison. So after that whole justice system has met the proper trials against the people who are responsible, perhaps the party can come back and maybe they may have a voice, but people are against that as well.
(29:17):
Lots of people are saying that Awami League as a party should just be banned, and they should have no space in politics anymore in Bangladesh, because of what happened. As a result-
John Morrell (29:28):
Apon, please continue, sorry.
Apon Zahir (29:32):
Yeah. So right now I think it’s way too early to tell, but all I can say that I think the right wing voices will have more space now.
John Morrell (29:44):
It’s interesting, Apon, you described that the Awami League was, initially it wasn’t a center left government. In fact, its history, it had a background with … It was considered left. But the Awami League hasn’t really had much, at least as it’s been viewed by the outside world, and this is what we’ll wrap up with, CIPE talks a lot about the need for strong institutions. President Barack Obama used the term, he was in Africa at the time, but he said, “This continent needs strong institutions, not strong men.” The Awami League started as it had ideology, but it became, it was an instrument around one family, in particular one person, the prime minister in charge.
(30:38):
And as a result this all powerful institution that was viewed as the power that ran the government, when stress was applied to it, it proved remarkably brittle. And the Awami League could, as you say, it could cease to exist. That constituency, the center left constituency is still there, but the institution itself proved to be quite brittle. And Bangladesh needs strong institutions, not strong men or strong bagoonds to battle.
Apon Zahir (30:38):
Absolutely.
John Morrell (31:12):
Shurat Rana Rushmi and Apon Zahir, thank you so much for taking the time to see us, and please stay safe, and thank you for being so willing to share what are difficult things to share. Bangladesh is going through a crisis right now, but at least I think our friends, both talented young professionals, these are the people who will be the backbone of the future Bangladesh. The fact that under Professor Yunus’ leadership there is a sense of optimism, that sense of optimism is returning. And so those of us who may not be in Bangladesh today, whether we’re in the United States or anywhere else, you give us reason for optimism as well. So thank you both so much for your time, we hope to have you back sometime soon.
Apon Zahir (32:01):
Thank you for having us.
Announcer (32:03):
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Published Date: September 13, 2024